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Visual Artists: Would You Change Your Name?

by Moshe Mikanovsky on 8/26/2010 8:52:34 AM

This article is by Moshe Mikanovsky, Regular contributing writer for FineArtViews.  You should submit an article and share your views as a guest author by clicking here.

Actors have Stage Names. Authors – Pen Names. Even wrestlers are known by different name, a Ring Name. So what is it about visual artists that does not make us change our names for the trade?

Historically, throughout the Renaissance period in Italy, some artists had nicknames that stuck. Like Donatello, who was born Donato di Niccolò di Betto Bardi, Tintoretto whose real name was Jacopo Comin, or Boticelli – Alessandro di Mariano di Vanni Filipepi. Another culture that produced art names is in the East Asian countries, where Chinese, Japanese and Korean artists receives names based on their level of proficiency and experience in their trade. In the modern ages though, visual artists are not known to change their names in order to promote their brand.

Some of the reasons artists might want to change their name for could be:

·         Uniqueness – My art teacher and mentor, artists Gary Smith, told me once: “I have a very bad name for an artist. But you have a great name”. Although a talented artist with unique style and an amazing art coach, Gary was worried that his name doesn’t help him to become unique, above the rest. But with a name like Mikanovsky, he proclaimed that at least that will help me stands from the rest…

·         Privacy – Some artists prefers to keep their private life separate from their public life. Especially nowadays, with the Internet and data overflow, some people are anxious about putting their name out there (for different reasons that we could discuss in another post), so they might prefer using another name or a company name.

·         Different styles – one of the challenges for prolific artists that developed more than one style or artwork is to keep their artistic portfolio consistent. Authors who write in different styles usually adopt a pen name for the different style. That could be a solution for some artists, but it might create a huge marketing headache.

·         SEO (Search Engine Optimization) – as a topic close to my heart, this was the reason that triggered me to think, and write, about this topic. One of the things that artists and marketers learn about SEO is that the keyword that mostly used to find them is their name. Imagine a contemporary artist named “Picasso”. Would we ever find him on the first or second page of Google? And what about my mentor Gary Smith? The combination of a common surname and given name brings many results that are not relevant for the search we are looking for. And another example, my friend, artist Myriam Levi. You might notice the spelling of her name, Myriam with “y”. Everyone who looks for her usually would search for Miriam Levi (with “i”), and therefore can’t find her. Would it better if she changes her name’s spelling?

There are other reasons why performance artists change their names, like ethnicity, ease of use, relevance to the image they portray, ease of remembrance, family connections, and guild and association rules (read more about it in Wikipedia), but these seemed to me a bit less relevant for visual artists. But I am sure there could be other reasons that artists might want to change their names, or different ways to look at it.

So I’ll leave this open to you – the visual artist – would YOU change your name?

Cheers
Moshe



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 182 Comments

Cooper
via canvoo.com
Moshe, I would guess a lot of artists covet the uniqueness of your name. I know of at least three other artists who share my name, not to mention a self professing witch, a dentist that sells smile faces, numerous real estate agents, and a fortune teller, who somehow managed to import all of my images to her hotfrog site, making it look like we were one-and-the-same person. Fun times. But am I looking to change my name? NO. I've invested too much into name recognition to change it now. I'll leave changing names to one of the others of us out in the world. My goal instead, is to be the BEST of us sharing this name!
Cooper

Faith Bradburn Keller
via canvoo.com
Moshe,

I have been considering changing my name for some time and appreicated your post. I've been divorced for 7 years, my kids are grown and on their own and I am not comfortable continuing my ex's name. I haven't made a decision yet and alot of it has to do with the reasons you wrote about. Thanks for bringing up the discussion.

John Smith
via canvoo.com
Would I change my name? No not ever, and it's believe it or not... John Smith!
Many years ago I did in fact change it and then my Art teacher asked me if I was nuts?
He felt my name was a winner and said no-one can ever forget a name like John Smith and it doesn't stop with the name but creates all kinds of questions or anecdotes. I long ago learned to shrug off silly jokes, and the name has served me well for many years so why ever change it. Of course I am often asked if it is really my name or an assumed name? It is really the name I was christened with.
In closing many of my female artist friends paint under their maiden names, and that seems a reasonably sensible practice to me.
Judy Mudd
via canvoo.com
I could definitely use a name change. With the Internet, how could anyone not be found out for long. Our communication and information age makes it difficult to "hide" in plain sight. But, I do feel a name change could help in recognition. I can't tell you the people that have told me I need a male name to be successful, that a woman's artwork would not be as sought-after as a man. I don't know. That could be another post topic all together.
Kim
via canvoo.com
I like my name--I don't see any real problems with it as is, or advantages to using another name. I just can't seem to paint it nicely! Some artists are very good at making their signature as interesting or calligraphic as their artwork, but I have a hard time doing a nice looking signature in paint. I'm using just my initials now because it's simpler and easier to apply to a finished piece, particularly since I hyphenated my name when I got married.
Kaitlin Gray
via canvoo.com
I used to be frustrated with my name, and though I would never change it I did attempt to use a separate business name in the hopes it would be easier for people to spell from hearing it word of mouth. There are a few ways to spell Kaitlin... In fact, I've only ever come across a handful of people who spelled it my way on the first try! I've since given up using the business name, it never really sat well.
Recently I've been having some fun analyzing my last name, and have decided to embrace it fully. After all, creating, for me, is like a splash of color in a gray world! And of course I love to explore the gray areas of things, combining black and white to allow different perspectives. =)
Angelique
via canvoo.com
Well, I am signing my paintings with Angelique which is not my given name although I have a double barrel name which would definitely stand out. But, first of all that name would be to long, I am talking 17 letters here, abbreviation I wanted to avoid because it would difficult if not impossible to find in a search engine. Secondly I wanted to separate private and business and last but not least, my chosen artist name kind of helps me to slip into a different personality, being very analytical it helps me to , it is not me the analytical, critical person painting, but Angelique, by doing so I am switching into right brain mode and I am able to go with the flow, well most of the time.
Phyllis o'Shields
via canvoo.com
Would definately change name if to common such as my married name. I use me maiden name always Phyllis O'Shields
Karen Winters
via canvoo.com
No way I'd change my name. As a landscape painter I think it's perfectly suited to what I do. I've even had people ask me "is that your real name?" So sometimes it's even a conversation starter.

I'm keeping it (and the hubby that came with it.)
Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
Hello Moshe..

Ahhhhhhh Names. Can relate to this topic very much.

Oh, Cooper, I also know of a beautiful part Siberian Husky/Malamute dog who shares your name.
So sorry, I could not help but mention that because the dog is my daughters. The name fits him well and connects with his strength and yet also his gentleness.
Cooper is a strong name. A good name.

And Moshe, You have a very different and cool name and one that absolutely stands out.

Faith...I know of many women who have changed their names after a divorce. I think doing that shows a certain independence and a willingness to strike out on your own no matter what. It is a new and wonderful beginning!!

Moshe...This is a wonderful post/article that you have written. A great topic. I would think that there have been quite a few artists who have wondered about their names.

I know of one woman artist who was told that she should use just the initial of her first name with her last name because it sounded more masculine in gender which would be more helpful in her art career.
WHY??? Because men have always been known to advance quicker, further and taken more seriously than women even if they are not more talented, but simply because of their gender. She also had told me that maybe I too should consider doing that.
I told her my name would remain Sandy (shortened from Sandra) and Sandy could be a man's name too although unusual.
Actually, using a more masculine sounding name was the last thing I cared about..did not matter to me. I am who I am...and if I am going to make it as an artist, then it will be using my own name as it is.
To be honest though, I had debated whether or not to use my more fomal mame Sandra. Believe me. Even yet today, I still think of it and even write it out to see what it would look like... Sandra Askey-Adams...Hmmmmm.... as compared to Sandy Askey-Adams. Heck, I have used Sandy since I first started doing the art as a serious profession back in the 1970's. (I was a young babe in the woods).

More so, I wondered about using my Maiden name which is Askey. It is often mis-pronounced, misspelled and some people just do not like that "AS" in there and will change it or pronounce and write it as Ashley...or something similar.
I use to get treased horribly as a kid about my last name by the young boys and then the teenage boys. I will not get into that part of it. LOL It was not nice.
Besides, when my family came over from Europe, the people who registered the name wrote the wrong name and it stayed that way. So supposedly, everyone with the last name Askey is related.

Another thing, when I illustrated a book, (Nature Buffs Story) back in the late 1979, I decided as a tribute to my mom and dad, I would use my maiden name with my married name. There, the decision was made. Plus, my husband's brother also met and married a woman with the name Sandy and she became Sandy (Sandra) Adams. So then we had two Sandy Adams in the family. Since her maiden name began with a J and my maiden name began with an A. That side of the family referred to us as Sandy J and Sandy A. But, people even began asking her if she painted this or that painting when it was my work. She is a beautiful loving person, but is not an artist.

A bit of an involved story, but there it is about my name choice as an artist.
Why would I want to change it from the first letter of the alphabit anyway?!! LOL (Believe it or not, I can think of reasons to change it because of that too.)

A Name is important. When I think of some of the names that parents have given their children, I shudder. A name is not a joke and should not be handed out to a child to prove a point or just to be something so different that it becomes a terrible joke on an innocent child. A child cannot change their name till they get older. I know of some who have gone to court and have done so.

Guess I sure have had my say on this topic.
Signing off with the name Sandy Askey-Adams..or and also, there was the debate of the hyphen or not too which I started using back in 1980. I hate it when people do not use that hyphen. But, it was best NOT TO USE It on my web site.

:)Sandy


T. Miller
via canvoo.com
Hi Moshe (I love your name btw). Yes, I would change my name - in fact since I am an emerging artist I'm still contemplating it. The problem is I don't know what's involved in acquiring a pseudonym.

My pseudonym would be a variation of the last name I was born with, my maiden name. I always liked it's uniqueness. I've never met anyone with it that I was not related to. I went from that to marrying someone with one of the most common names in the U.S. and kind of dull. So yes, I would prefer to use a more unique name.
Deborah Weinstein
via canvoo.com
Would I change my name?

If an artist is not authentically himself or herself, then what value can there be in his or her art? If I must pretend to be something I am not to make a sale - personally, I'd rather go back to doing office work.

But who am I?

My childhood name was plain vanilla - a cute nickname and Americanized last name, short and easy to spell.

Later in life I dropped the nickname in the hopes of getting taken more seriously in the job market.

When I got married I began using my husband's last name because I got tired of answering the question, "er... Are you two actually married?"

I have ever since been hauling through life a three-syllable firt name and a family moniker weighty not only with letters (there are NINE) but also ethnic connotation. It's hard to spell as well and takes forever to write out with a paint brush!!

At least one family member believes my ethnic name will inhibit my "success" as an artist, but I feel that a collector who does not like my last name should probably buy art from someone whose last name they like better. That would probably not be Moshe.

But for uniqueness - yes, that's important. I know of at least one other Deborah Weinstein who is also an artist, and I wish her well. Several years ago I saw her work hanging in a room in Evanston, Illinois where a figure-drawing workshop was going on. There we were, not only two people with the same name but also living in the same area and pursuing the same interests. She even spelled "Deborah" the same old-fashioned way that I do, and I would not have been ashamed to claim the work that I saw hanging. But it wasn't mine.

So in signing my art I now tack "M." in front of Deborah. It looks pompous, but I just kind of suck that up, my way of belatedly apologizing to my late mother whose feelings were hurt when I dropped the first name she gave me when I was born but then never called me by. It also distinguishes me from Deborah Sanchez Weinstein. I hope will also offer her some protection from being blamed for my art as we continue our separate journeys through this artist life.
Minaz Jantz
via canvoo.com
I did change my name (no internet considerations at that time) to mark an important life change which just happened to correlate with my taking on painting and showing it to the public... the other option was a TATTOO... glad I went with the name change...

I love z and my signature had to be dance like to move across the page giving me great joy in writing it out... One name is Persian the other is German... interesting as I am typing this out I realize they rhyme.

Changing a name and getting everyone to commit to it is a very interesting process and should not be considered lightly... it is a personal birth of sorts, a commitment with confidence of marking a change in your life. I could go on writing about the journey of changing my name but will say only one more thing... if you do change your name know this; it will take a few years to get everyone on board with you as your friends and family will have mixed feelings about losing you... be gracious with them and give them time. Your mom and dad will say humbug but you will find that having two sets of names is OK too.

If you are to type into GOOGLE Minaz... you will find pages upon pages... so unique it is for this culture...Be Joyful, Minaz Jantz
Holly J Banks
via canvoo.com
I thought that this was very interesting. I share the name of a very good contemporary artist. Her middle name is Hope and mine is Joy. I have often signed paintings H Joy Banks to avoid confusion with her work. My husband says that we should find a Holly Faith and open a Faith, Hope, and Joy studio together!
Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
LOL Holly,
The name Faith, Hope, and Joy for a studio is a thought!! LOL
Bet there is a Holly Faith out there somewhere, but is she an artist??
:)
Helen Horn Musser
via canvoo.com
Moshe, you've given us something to think about but, I beleive for mature artists to change their name would be insane. Who considers this when they are first starting and how would the thread of history be woven for that artist's work. Backround becomes very immportant as you mature. For me I did take Helen Musser to Helen Horn Musser when I went online but, it is not a change, just added maiden name as many women do

Helen Horn Musser
via canvoo.com
John Smith, you do have a distinquished name and it's part of your charm. Glad you never would change.

Donna Robillard
via canvoo.com
No, I would not change my name - I am very fond of it! I do sign my first name and maiden name with the initials, and then finish with the full last name. I wanted to use the initial of my maiden name in my signature to honor my parents, and then my last name is who I am now. If I were to write all names out, it would be way too long.

Carole Rodrigue
via canvoo.com
Moshe, this is such an interesting topic, and one I've thought about for years! I use my maiden name, and always have. Even when I was married and had a different last name, I'd always use my given name whenever I signed a painting. For some reason, I could never really part with my last name. It's who I am, who I was born as, and who I will die as. It's me. The name thing is a difficult issue for women. And a famous artist already has my last name, but it is my name also and I will keep using it. It's also interesting to note that there are two Royo's, both equally famous, and both with a very unique way of painting women. Thanks for the article!

Cynthia Wenslow
via canvoo.com
I'm lucky to have a unique name. If someone googles me, they only get me.

My daughter, on the other hand, is named Elizabeth Gray. She was constantly being mistaken for other artists with the same name. So she has recently changed her professional name to Ysmay. It's working quite well for her.
Brenda Behr
via canvoo.com
I feel fortunate that Brenda Behr can be googled and BrendaBehr's faso web page is the first listing that appears. For a very brief period, Behr, the paint company, topped me on the Google page. My full name is Brenda Freeken Behr. It took me fifty years to find the courage to make it official, but this is now my full legal name. I don't see a need now to change the name with which I sign my paintings to include my Freeken maiden name, but on the bio I put on all my artwork, I do use my full name. I've had people tell me it was the final clincher on deciding to purchase a particular piece of my artwork. Whatever works.

Michelle McSpadden
via canvoo.com
GREAT post!!

For a long time I hated my last name because it was sooo long, hard for people to pronounce and spell, but over the past 5 years I've come to appreciate it more and more. I'm glad I didn't change it or abbreviate my name.
Tom Quinn
via canvoo.com
When I first started out as a professional artist, I signed my paintings "T.C. Quinn", even though I've never liked people who go by their initials; it only makes me curious about what their REAL name is. The main reason I used my initials was because there already is a much more famous artist named Thomas Quinn, who lives in the San Francisco Bay area. "American Artist" magazine once did a cover story on him, including a photo of his studio. They even showed the street sign that told all their readership exactly which street corner he lived on.
But when I painted my first mural, the news media referred to me as "Tom Quinn", so I decided to go by the name I'm used to. I figured there was enough difference between "Tom" and "Thomas" to avoid confusion. After all, the author of "Look Homeward, Angel" was billed as "Thomas Wolfe" while the author of "The Bonfire of the Vanities" is known as "Tom Wolfe", and nobody gets THEM confused (although it always seemed to me that the former writer was more like a "Tom" and the latter more of a "Thomas").
Since I got my FASO website, I've gotten more client contacts from people who thought I was "Thomas Quinn" than anyone else. You'd think one look at my paintings would tell them that he and I are as different as Jerry Lewis and Jerry Lee Lewis, but somehow it doesn't. I always reply that the artist they want is "Thomas Quinn", and I give them his home address. It may seem like an invasion of privacy, but he didn't seem to mind when it was published in "American Artist". Besides, if "American Artist" ever did a story about ME, I'd be glad to let them print my home address if I thought it would get me more clients.

Carol Schmauder
via canvoo.com
Interesting question Moshe! I would never think to change my name. I thought my name was unique but there is another Carol Schmauder that lives back east and is a nurse. I was surprised to find her when I Googled my name. However, there are many paintings out there already with my name on them so I will stick with the name I already have.

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

Carol Schmauder
via canvoo.com
One thing that might be misleading in my previous comment: I don't sign my full name on my paintings, I sign C. Schmauder.

John Smith
via canvoo.com
Thank you Helen - your check is in the post. We spell it cheque here, but your American spell-check makes makes rude signs at me so check it is. js
Helen Horn Musser
via canvoo.com
I rely on spell check quite often; sorry yours is having a fit. Many spellings are very different across the pond. Sometimes makes it hard to desipher. Hope you've had a productive day and we can't wait to see your new still life with gold leaf.

Helen Horn Musser
via canvoo.com
Carol I too sign with H Musser; there must be many artists who sign with same name because I've gotten several inquirys from different ones who have a painting with that signature and are wondering if I am the painter.

John Smith
via canvoo.com
Watch this space Helen or you will find it on my website when its ready.
Barb Stachow
via canvoo.com
As a beginner artist I asked my peers about name changing. I was told to use my initials if I didn't want to write it all out everytime. Being that my initials are BS I just couldn't see myself signing that on my paintings, So I inserted my middle initial and made it look nice with a big B, smaller E and a fancy S in front of my entire last name. I made it look real nice and now I wouldn't change my artist name if I was paid to.
Bill Crowley
via canvoo.com
Very thought-provoking post...and entertaining. We ( Judy and I and pets,plants, and one child still in school ) moved from the East coast to Colorado 20 years ago. I decided to call myself "Colorado Bill" because my real name was never remembered for some strange reason. With the internet literally controlling our lives, I still use both...my real name and my Colorado nickname. But...as of this minute, I've got a new name!!! You all can now call me "Google Colorado Bill Crowley"!!! Take THAT, search engines!!!!!
PJ Cook
via canvoo.com
Thirty years ago when I graduated from art school I decided to use a different name. I wanted to use my initials and I saw another artist with the same name - PJ Smith. I figured there must be a thousand artists named PJ Smith. So I used another family name of mine- Cook- and have used that for my business name ever since. It still is common but not as common as Smith. I still use my Smith name for anything non art related and I love it because I never have to spell it:)
PJ Cook
Judy Mudd
via canvoo.com
Okay, now I'm jealous of all of you with these fabulous names. Even, Freeken Behr would be an improvement over mine. I can't even add my maiden name (although I do) without it sounding even stranger. But, I suspect it will be remembered that way. I even had a viewer laugh out loud when she read my name on a painting. Judy Moore Mudd
This way my name is not only "Mud" but "More Mud".
Brenda Freeken Behr
via canvoo.com
Too funny Judy Mudd. I knew you had to be a watercolor painter. Was your name dirt before you got into watercolors?

Judy Mudd
via canvoo.com
Brenda,
Yes, watercolors painters have to like to get out of control occasionally. I have to work hard not to get "mud" in my paintings, too! BTW, love your name. Who would ever forget it? I can hear your buyers now, "Don't you just love that Freeken painting?" I definitely think it is an asset.
Brenda Freeken Behr
via canvoo.com
Hey thanks Judy Mudd. Your name sure got me to your site.

Wendy J. St. Christopher
via canvoo.com
Ahh, one of my favorite topics!

My name - part(s) of which were changed years before I entered the art world - is a double-edged sword: In the 'real world' it works like gangbusters, people usually remember it and often comment on how it will be easy to remember. Which is great, in this line of work.

Online, on the other hand, it's a nightmare. Just try searching for anything 'St. Christopher' related. Religion, anyone? Hospitals? Schools? Charities? Etc.? And with periods and spaces -- the probability for misspellings is high, indeed.

Which is why I use the online moniker 'Art166'(.com, .net, .biz, .info), but always with my name in close proximity. Complicated, but it works.

Having an uncommon surname is great, for the most part -- nothing is more satisfying than having a fan or potential buyer approach me with the words, "St. Christopher, right?" :-)

I'm not sure if I'd consider changing my name just for business reasons, but a name that I felt just didn't 'fit' -- I'd change that in a second.

That being said, I do use a pen name in my secret identity as a writer . . . for now, at least.

I enjoyed reading your OP, Moshe, and the thoughtful/interesting/amusing comments. :-)
Ernestine Grindal
via canvoo.com
Both my "real" legal name as well as my nickname are not only common in the US, but even more so in the UK. Since we now deal with a global market, it was NECESSARY that I use another name. But I didn't have to go very far: when I became the same age my mother was when she passed away, I started using her real but very unique name . . . I've never "googled" another. I find it's a nice tribute to my Mom, and the name just brings up MY art (and occasionally the "real" Ernestine in ancestry pages) whereas my REAL name bring up hundreds of varied accomplished or notorious other persons. --Sara (Sally) Clarke
Joanne Benson
via canvoo.com
Great Post! I hadn't considered changing my name until reading this post. There is at least one other artist out there with my name and still it did't occur to me. Perhaps I'll add my maiden name which is quite uncommon. I did on Facebook so old friends could find me. Something to think about.
Marsha Hamby Savage
via canvoo.com
Moshe, love the article and all the comments.

A little over 12 years ago I married for the second time. Now what to do about paintings? I always relate the story of how my husband to-be asked me to marry him. We were discussing selling each of our homes and buying one together since we spent all our time together. We had been dating for six years with no discussion of marrying. We were driving to my cabin in North Georgia when I said "okay, so we are both going to sell and buy a house, right?"

His response was -- "I just have one question. What name are you going to sign on your paintings?" I kind of looked at him like, what are you talking about? He grinned! So, that is how he asked.

And, my thought was -- it must be important to him that I use some name other than my previous husband's. I had painted for 23 years of marriage (the first one) and the 6 years since the divorce with the name "Marsha Bacon". I asked my mentor and she advised me not to change from the Bacon name because I had some success and many paintings out there.

So, I decided to change and use my new last name -- Savage. I now sign my paintings with Marsha Savage -- but all my literature, business cards, etc. have my maiden name in the middle -- "Marsha Hamby Savage". Since I am regionally known, many of those that bought in the first 29 years, knew I was a "Hamby" so I thought it might help bridge the gap! For a long time I included in my biography that I painted under the name Marsha Bacon for 23 years. I don't add that anymore since it has now been 12 years with the new name and a whole lot more success.

And, there have been many times when I introduce myself, I am told "what a great artist name" -- Marsha Savage!
Sandy Askey-Adams
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Joanne..

As I had said in my post way up above I had started using my maiden name shortly after I was married. Heck, my sister-in-law even had the name Sandy Adams after marrying my husbands brother...and I can't tell you how many Sandy Adams I have ran into.

Adams is such a common name and so is the name Sandy or Sandra. My maiden name is highly uncommon. Those that are out there are supposedly related due to when family traveled here from Europe and the name was registered wrong thru a language barrier.

So I do use my maiden name of Askey with a hyphen and also as a tribute to my parents.
It stands out and is different even though the other two names are far more common.
I would not want to change my maiden name.

I have a niece who disliked the name Askey (loved her family) and when she became old enough did change her name to the heartbreak of her parents...since she had also been adopted.
AND she chose a very common last name in its place. But, that was her choice and eventually family lovingly accepted her decision. Her new names sounds pretty cool with her first name anyway.

Names are so important for so many reasons. Some names do need and should be changed.

:)Sandy
Sandy Askey-Adams
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Moshe, this is a great subject.
It is so, so interesting and it is causing each one of us to notice and look over one another's names. A good thing when one is an artist. The names in these posts might be remembered more easily due to your fascinating article idea.

BTW...PJ....
Funny here...LOL
When you wrote that your other name is Smith, I had to chuckle because my daughter married a Smith. She went from another common name Adams to an even far more common name of Smith.

Her inlaws names are common first names...Joe and Mary!!!

:)Sandy
Joanne Benson
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Sandy,
When I married I was quite happy to go from Kreppel to Benson! But now I'm reconsidering because there are very few Kreppels! My mother in law is also an artist and she went from Jones to Benson (ist marraige) to Johnson(2nd marriage)....all 3 fairly common names! I think she still signs her paintings P Jones Benson.....

marilyn gillis
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Thanks Moshe for this article. With all the seo tools I've read and used no one ever suggested putting my name or the name of my website in the keywords.
That has now been corrected! Thank you!

I have considered changing my online name because when Marilyn is googled or searched the first several pages are all about Marilyn Monroe. Hard to compete with that name!
I'm waiting for someone to rebuild my website and I may change the name of it but I haven't seriously considered changing my name.
Jo Allebach
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I would never change my name again. I changed it 4 times by marriage (no more) so after the last one I went back to my maiden name and will keep it the rest of my life. It is unique enough that I haven't found any other artists (especially with Jo. The spelling can be difficult for some.

I am proud of my name. Thanks for the topic.



Moshe Mikanovsky
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Excellent comments, stories and sharing everyone!

Cheers
Moshe
Phyllis Von Holdt
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I don't think I want to change my name but it could use an adjustment, such as dropping a few letters (from Phyllis to PhyPhy, maybe), just to mark a difference in painting styles or whatever.

marilyn gillis
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Jo,
I've changed my name several times by marriage too. I signed with my maiden name for a while but I am completely estranged from that family by my choice. That's why I sign with just my first name now.
marilyn gillis
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Oh yeah,even my maiden name has a famous TV character attached to it.
John Smith
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Hi, If 'Marilyn - Artist' is typed or Googled it thins it out quite a bit. It will miss out Marilyn Munroe etc.
Whenever I am looking for an artist I do it that way and hit pay-dirt most times.
Stephen James
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My wife, Rachel James, has decided to keep her maiden name as her artist since there are a lot more Rachel James's out there than Rachel Steely's. It's also convenient to have on the mobile phone and the email Rachel Steely James which doesn't confuse people. It just sounds hyphenated.

And with me being a web designer, the SEO issue cropped up pretty early in her career. I think racheljames.com was already taken, too.

http://RachelSteely.com
Dalia Bar-Dror
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hi MOshe,

another hit with yr chosed and well articulated topic. (and fantastic and fascinating comments from everybody too)!

did u notice that in the long list of 'master artists' going 5-6 centuries - there isn't even ONE female name? in those days 'proper ladies' were frowned upon if they had 'real jobs', and writing books or having a painting talent - were things worth hiding! so many talented women chose MEN's pseudonyms, if they wanted to sell or being taken seriously, professionally. (it's sad to acknowledge that now days, we are still working hard to shake this obstacle off...)

i have a pretty Hebrew surname, that means 'free person'. my father 'plucked it' out of thin air, in the old days, when there was still prejudice and discrimination against people of 'low' origin of which his original surname indicated he came from. i always loved my surname, and to this day there are still very few people with this name in my country, so it was always already unique.

i got married when i was 29, so by then i already had quiet a few art pieces under my belt, signed by this name, and i was building up some reckognition and artistic reputation.

my then husband expected me to do the traditional and authomatic thing and addopt his surname,(which was an OK Hebrew name, not ugly, dull or even too common), but i stated to him that no one would reckognize that 'new artist' signed on my paintings, and i didn't intend to just 'write off' 29 years of my life, and my existance,(and more than 10 of them as a selling artist)- just cos i got married. (oh, yeah.. i can be like that..) :-)

needless to say he wasn't happy, but then again - 2 yrs later we got divorced anyway, (among other reasons cos of such 'un- bridgable gaps' between our views of things in life). so i never had to change back to my maiden name - it was always there.
Deborah Weinstein
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Dalia, I didn't actually count them, but it seemed obvious to me that the overwhelming majority of responses to Moshe's initial question "Would you change your name?" came from women. Men equal or outnumber women in responding to other topics, but not this one. Your post suggests why the question of identity is still experienced so deeply and personally by many female artists.


Phyllis Von Holdt
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Good observation, Deborah. I think women are more open to the possibility of a name change through marriage while most men tend to hold on to what they were given, with the exception of a few nicknames.
Sandy Askey-Adams
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Deborah....
I totally agree with you.

Basically, men do not have to worry about their (masculine) name in the art field....or any other field while women STILL must in certain fields.
A woman is not always taken as serious.... or at least NOT as serious as a man who may be ranked just as high as she...or even if she is ranked higher, she does not get the recognition that she rightfully deserves, but the man would get that recognition quicker and absolutley more easily.
I know quite a few women artists who use only their first initial with their last name so they avoid SOME of the prejudice that is out there. They soon begin to notice the difference also once deciding to opt to use their first name initial only.
Whether or not we want to admit to it, The bias is still there. AND some men will be the first to say it is not.

:)Sandy
John Smith
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Ladies greetings, I'm sticking my neck out here but wonder if someone buying a painting that they really loved would be put off because it was painted by a woman? I cannot believe that; and besides I wonder if the majority of paintings for the home are not in fact bought by women?

Are you saying that women prefer buying paintings by men? This again is hard to believe.

Most of the female artists I've known have used their maiden names. It must be a very insecure and immature man who would object to that?
Most of the galleries that I've worked with have had about a 50/50 split of male and female artists.

Again, assuming that most paintings bought for the home are bought by women, then why would Gallery owners be biased in favour of male painters?
There is something here that does not make any sense and needs closer scrutiny.
Where I live most of the Art Galleries are owned by woman. If that is also the case where you are, are you saying that female gallerists are favouring men over women? Why would they? Surely they would select work they liked or believed would sell rather than which gender painted it.

I think some accurate statistcs are needed here or we are using urban-legend as fact.

I think that if there are more men artists it is merely because more men take the plunge and go into art full-time more readily than women. It could also be that women come into serious painting after they have their families off their hands. That is not favouritism though but choice.
I'd be interested to hear what the ladies really believe and so too the men.
Deborah Weinstein
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It all makes one think, doesn't it? We are talking about the INTERNAL sense of identity as much or more than bias (or lack thereof) in the marketplace. It seems that men, artists and non, rarely confront these questions. What would the world be like if that simple sense that "I Am Who I Am" were not a privilege of just one gender? But I digress!
Phyllis Von Holdt
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It's not exactly a choice for a woman to 'put off painting' when you have a baby crying, needing the many things that babies need, or children who are ill or needing to get to soccer, piano, etc. When you have a child, that child comes first in your thoughts. I know some men do a fair share of the work but the woman is usually in charge of household duties and it takes a lot of energy. O.K.; maybe she shouldn't have made the choice to have a baby, but being a mother is part of life. As the children leave home, women do have a chance to get into artwork but the men still seem to have had the advantage of the earlier years at practicing their art.
Sorry -- you do make valid points but I had to speak up on this one item.

Dalia Bar-Dror
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hi john,

u made some valid points there, or so logic and common sense would suggest they are - but sadly, 'the glass ceiling' modern term was not invented for nothing.

yes, we are as talented and as capable as men in everything (with the exception of heavy physical work), and yet, when a baby is born - it's traditionally expected of the women to leave their work and raise it, while the men (traditionally titled 'the bread winner'/'family supporter'), keep their jobs, (and get paid more).

it's rarely done the opposite way, also (if not mainly), because of financial calculations: if the men would stay home while the women keep their jobs - they will lose the higher earning income.

to this day, 10 yrs into the 21st century, women still need to fight for equal pay for equal work, even in the best of places, and in many 'modern' countries.

somehow, even if it's a woman owner of a gallery, or a woman purchasing art - still the female artist seems to be treated as a 'clever pet', a talented girl, who gets to be paid for her HOBBY, that kinda grew too big for her kitchen, while for the men full time artists - it's 'a profession'.

for the same 'dark ages' thinking behind valueing men higher than women doing the same job, we meet this 'invisible' and un-admitted limitation, when u come to pricing the art pieces: 2 works of similar levels of talent/ability etc., would be sold in the same gallery (even those owned by women), in different prices: the women's would be the one with the lower figures.

so, john, even if women own galleries, or edit high profile and successful magazines - they still bow to the un written (but well felt) rules the long male domination created.
Judy Mudd
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John, I've heard this implication many times (and from females associated with galleries) with the suggestion I just use my initial for my first name~ that it would more likely sell if it appeared non-gendered. So far, I have refused, but certainly been tempted. Remember, as artists, if men create, they are working and need the income, if women create, they are dabbling or playing and it is a just sideline. I know we feel "enlightened" and can't believe people feel this way, but it is just the way it is. And sadly, there are many women that feel this way. I ask the female artists on this blog--when the phone rings, don't you have to tell people "you're working" instead of "you're painting" so they take your time seriously?
Karen Winters
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Judy, most of the people I know know that I'm a full-time artist so it comes as no surprise to them that I'm painting. When I get calls from strangers I'll sometimes say I'm an artist in the middle of a painting, gotta go. I have never felt that people don't take me seriously.

As far as signing goes, from the beginning I have used my first initial and last name - not for gender issues but because it's shorter than signing the whole name and I like a small discreet signature. A lot of the men I know just use their last names, no first initial at all.
Sandy Askey-Adams
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Right on ladies!! So true Dalia...and SO WELL stated.

But, Phyllis,,,, Where you mentioned about women making a choice to have a baby....well, I would say that men (the husband) is also involved in that decision...but alas, when it comes to all the caring, getting up in the middle of the night, Etc... men seem to be able to snore away night or day and ignore if the wife is around to do the work.
Being a father is part of life too, but, again the man has the choice. The woman does not. If she does not take care of the children, often, the father will not either. (I know, in cases today, that is not always true. I will give the men that benefit. They have finally taken up their share.)

But, we are talking about ART, WOMEN and BIAS. OF course the bias is there.
As I also stated in my other message...and had also said that SOME MEN WILL NOT admit to the bias. There lies why it keeps taking women so long to change the ways of society.
There are still men who do not admit to the bias, and subsequently if one does not recognize the truth, then the wrong cannot be corrected, or at least it takes longer to correct.

Women can tell stories of the times they were treated less than the men artists. Men cannot tell those same stories. Newspapers and some of the art magazines will much quicker do an article on a man artist than the woman artist...and the article sounds incredible.

While at an art show years, years ago, a man who was purchasing several pieces of my work while I was totalling up the sale, ..The man said to me something like....... "Can you handle these sales? Does your husband know you are out here? Where is he so he can help you with the business part?"
What? Excuse me!!
Also had the IRS try to say I was doing the art as a hobby..which I was not, and I proved otherwise. But The IRS agent harrassed me for weeks on the phone calling me, etc...Had to take photos of my studio, and a whole heck of a lot of stuff and go into the office with my accountant and my husband. Would they have treated a man artist like that? I don't think so. For one thing, the IRS guy even told me I was a woman with children and could not possibly be doing the art as a full time job. Again ... What? Excuse me!

AND btw, not only was I doing the outdoor art shows, having work in galleries, running art shows, was on the board of officers of three different art associations, also helping to form a NEW art association, teaching art, doing art demonstrations, teaching CCD, running a household,etc..etc...., I was also raising my two little girls along side my husband who had it much easier getting up early and heading out to his work and then back home for dinner that I prepared, then he was also playing racket ball, golf or tennis, going on business trips, deep sea fishing, etc..etc..etc..
Even back then, belonging to several art associations, I noticed a bias toward women members. The men were more highly praised and thought after more than the women artists.

Oh well....
:)Sandy


John Smith
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Thanks Deborah, Phyllis, Dalia and Judy,
I concede that their is a lot of unfairness in the world, and its wrong, and I sympathize with you, but we need to deal with facts as far as they are available or these problems will never be solved.

I agree with Judy's inference that woman need to assert themselves where they are being wronged. I am talking about the art-industry because that is where my experience is. I've been in it a long long time. Artwork of the same quality should be priced for what it is, and gender MUST not come into it at all, but then I have had personal experience where a friend of mine was charging far lower prices than the other artists in our circle.

I know that the men were unhappy because she was very good and so her paintings were being snapped up. Although she was as good as any of the men her prices were far lower. When I mentioned this to her her response was that she did not need to charge more because her husband paid the bills and she saw this merely as pocket-money.

A year or two later her husband was in a horror smash and broke his back and suddenly she was the bread-winner. She had three young boys and her husband would be bed-ridden for at least six months. Suddenly the low prices were no longer adequate and she had quite a job getting them up to where they should have been in the first place.

Her boys are grown up now and married and the husband recovered fully, but now my friend still charges what other artists of her caliber charge.
Question: Is it not that the lady artists are in fact expecting lower prices? If as Judy indicated, they said that this was their 'work' and that this was the price they expected they would get it?
I really believe that this is a problem that can be fixed in the art sector.
If your work is of equal quality demand the same price as men. If the work isn't though you will not get what you ask.
The solution may be at the easel and not out there?

Deborah Weinstein
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What good posts. Here's the thing: among the many biases that work against women are the ones that we internalize and that we are unconscious of. Exposing self-defeating thoughts and behaviors to the light of day may be the best first step towards changing the world for the better, as Clint would say (I think).
Sandy Askey-Adams
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John....
NO, For women, the solution is not at the aasel. It is OUT THERE.

Sandy
Sandy Askey-Adams
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ALSO....John,
That is like saying it is the FAULT of women for all the still remaining bias that is OUT THERE by saying the solution is at their easels. Not so.
:)Sandy


Helen Horn Musser
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John, prices are always whaat the markeet will bear. Had I started out charging 1500.00 for a painting I probably would have gotten nowhere. By the way, I reread what I wrote about history and I don't think I made it clear; women are very worthy of being remembered.

Helen Horn Musser
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Karen, I too use my first initial to sign paintings. I thought it was odd when one of my lady teachers suggested that I do this. She was much older and had been in the art scene for a very long time.

Judy Mudd
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To Karen's point that friends know: What if you are not a full-time artist but one working either a couple of jobs and/or taking care of family? Not everyone has the luxury of being a full-time working artist, at least at the outset. Maybe your closest friends would take your creative time seriously, but probably not others. You have to say, "I'm working" not painting. I have worked from home for the last 12 years, so it is easy to tell people I'm working when they call--of course, they probably don't know I'm painting, too, but eventually they are getting the idea. I remember several years ago when I was setting up my art business accounts for taxes, my accountant laughed, not thinking this would be a viable business. This is a typical response until they see your art work. Of course, the ultimate person that has to take yourself seriously is yourself!
Helen Horn Musser
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Judy, Recently a grandfather ask for advice for his granddaughter (an aspiring artists in the 6th grade). I immediately told him to keep negetive people out of her life. Thankfully we, as adults, can make that choice for ourselves.

Judy Mudd
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Helen, so true. Yes, that is good advice for all of us and key to a young child's growth. Negativity pulls us down and prevents us from growing and expanding our lives. There is so much around us without even trying that we certainly don't need any extra! :o)
John Smith
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I think you have hit the nail on the head Judy.
I find that people don't take art and artists seriously, be they man or woman artist. In trying to find credit or hire-purchase we tend to be treated like minors.
I do not believe that women should have to use their initials or hide the fact that they are women to get a fair deal.
As I said earlier, if you are confident at the easel you have every right to demand the same treatment and rewards as a man.
You are not going to get it though if you give your power away, and that power is your excellence in what you do.
However if your work does not come up to scratch then you cannot demand the same. No amount of hollering is going to change things, only the work you present.
I still feel it has to happen at the easel first, and then you can stand your ground, be you male or female.
Excellence and originality opens doors for anyone.
Helen Horn Musser
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John, we know our work has to demand equality but, you don't seem to understand any of what we have said. Being a woman has always been a handicap in the market place not just art but, everything. Can't you agree with that.

Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
John..
You still do not get it...nor do you understand at all what is being said. You are writing words without the understanding being grasped from those of us who are trying to get the point to you.
It does not begin or end at the easel. That has nothing to do with what we are saying.

It is bias we are speaking of that is not in our control. We are not talking about how well we paint or how well we do not paint. We are talking about Bias against women in the arts.
For some reason John you are not reading the depth of what we women have been saying about bias against women. You seem to keep trying to put and keep the bias against women upon the women as if women are the one's who control that bias.
Which reminds me....are my comments going thru because it seems that they are not being read by John or anyone else.

:)Sandy
John Smith
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Hi Helen,
I believe I understand perfectly. I know there has been a bias in favour of men since the first cave men went out to spear woolly mammoths for dinner. I'm sure way back then there would not have been much choice looking after kids or doing the things men did best.
I also understand that in the corporate world that bias it still in existence but fading in the West.
However this conversation was about the art industry and there has been very little male bias where I am for years. In between talking to you this evening I had this conversation with some of my female artist friends, and they tend to agree with me. Maybe things are different in the USA but then there are still more women in the world ( Including the USA) and in most other countries today, and certainly in the art world you have the numbers to change things. I do not believe I'm favouring men here, but rather being unbiased either way. We do have choices. Whether we exercise them or not is also a choice.
Helen Horn Musser
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Yes Sandy, I got your comment and I think you are right. Maybe John needs to reread and think about all of this. Another thing, John, I remember many years ago if a lady was allowed at the top it was said she slept her way there. I think you can remember this too. Another slap in our faces.

Helen Horn Musser
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John, when you are a Mother You don't have a choice. I don't think men understand this.Are you saying I should have turned my children over to a nanny when they were born. Well, I could not afford a nanny and my husband would have declared war.

Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
Hello John:
Is there a bias going on against me right now in that you are not reading my comments, nor replying to them? Just wondering. LOL I seriously am wondering if my comments are being posted on this Fine Art Views about this particular topic.

Anyway, I recently read in the "American Artist" magazine, November, 2010 issue, page 74 the following:

"Since the 1970's, women artists have grouped together in various towns to create cooperative galleries, informal support groups, nonprofit foundations, and other organizations to counter the histrorical BIAS against women in the art world. Althugh the situation has improved over the last few decades, women are STILL under-represented in exhibitions and in collections."

And also written: " Although some artists may feel that joining a women's group is not as necessary today as it once was, there are still many unpleasant realities that female artists face." " Jerry Saltz, art critic pointedly examined the 2006 exhibition schedule in New York City that just 23 percent of solo shows featured women artists."
You may read other percentages in the 2010 American Artist magazine article also "The Growing Power of Women's Art Groups" by Bob Bahr.

"There is still a need to advocate for women artists." Griefen says.

:)Sandy
Phyllis Von Holdt
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Sandy, I'm reading your comments and I agree with you. You are putting it so well, I can't add to it but I am silently cheering you on.
:)

Phyllis Von Holdt
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Write another comment . . .
Dalia Bar-Dror
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oh, Sandy...... thank you so much, i'm flattered... (especially since English isn't my mother's tongue).

and John: about "the solution being at the easel"- it's nowhere near the mark, i'm afraid:
i won't insult you by telling u what u already know: that it takes years of practice and developing one's artistic maturity, style, experience etc., before one dares to believe their work is good enough to sell.

but here is the thing, John: once we're out there, (women) getting all the compliments and sales, and our confidence builds up - we still don't get to stand shoulder to shoulder as absolute, objective and deserving equals (to men artists).
not for lack of self belief, not for low self esteem, (unless it is the un concious result of years long of pumping and hammering it into our 'little female brains' from young age by 'responsible adults' and 'art experts').
it's the SOCIETY, old but stubborn traditions, and those glass walls and ceilings, that shouldn't exist in our time - (but oh boy, how they do). these are the barriers that still keep us at a safe distance behind and below men...

and yes, u are right, there are, of course those female artists who are very good, and it's not due to their low self belief that they CHOOSE to price themselves down. for them 'it's only a little bit of fun', and as u said - their view is that the main expenses and house hold bills are paid by the husband's income, so the 'little wifey' can 'play' at 'pretend artist', and have a little extra pocket money for her little 'female nonsence stuff' to keep her occupied and sweet..

those are the ones who are lucky enough to have comfortable lives and the husband's salary is high enough to allow her not to work at all. i dare say that many such husbands 'buy' and pay for the wife's little 'toy' to relieve her bordom, such as keep her busy in a fassionable little boutique or 'art classes', to keep her busy and happy, and it's not a necessary income to the family. it won't make a difference to the house hold if her business even loses money, cos it's just a 'play job'... and the wifes see it the same way.

i'm talking about the majority of the other female artists, (and many of us ARE unique and original), and yet (u'd be surprised) - that key doesn't fit all the locks in the art world doors.....
Phyllis Von Holdt
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Yes, Helen, that comment about how a woman got to the top was always there! Sometimes today it still is.

Phyllis Von Holdt
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Write another comment . . .
John Smith
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You are not listening to me Helen.
We were talking about having to change ones name if you are a woman. I said I thought that it was wrong to have to use your initials or to hide the fact that you are a woman.
I said you need to change things. You have the numbers and the choices.
We are talking about the 'art industry' and not government or the corporate world here which we have little control over. Only 'the arts' and I have little doubt that in almost every sector of the arts woman outnumber men by at least two thirds.
In Societies and Art groups/clubs here the ratio is Approx. 90 percent female to 10 percent male. most of the galleries are run/owned by women and most paintings are chosen or bought by women.
If those stats are even slightly correct then you can call all the shots.
I'm not favouring men or women in this debate but believe that you really can change it to how you would like to be -if you have the will.
I still cannot understand from what you have said that there can/needs to be a male bias in the arts sector if it is already dominated by women?
It just does not make any sense?

I think it is disgusting that anyone could suggest a women who is successful got there by offering 'favours'. Any man that would suggest such a thing is not a man at all.
Sandy Askey-Adams
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HELLO JOHN!!!!! Shouting here.... This is Sandy.

ARE YOU READING MY COMMENTS AT ALL???!!!
Did you read what I said was stated in the lastest American Artist magazine???? Nov. 2010. on page 74?

Sandy
John Smith
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What can I say Sandy - other than this debate has really livened up?
Sandy Askey-Adams
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John..
Your first sentence or two about you feeling that it is wrong for a woman to have to feel like she needs to change her name or alter it in some way is wrong ... tells me at least we are on the same page as far as that goes.
But, needless to say, women do still have to feel like they must do that with their name and that brings us back to the main topic.

:)Sandy
John Smith
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Ladies, this has all been very interesting. I have in fact been listening very intently to what you have been saying and I hope you have listened equally as well to what I have been saying, but now it is midnight here and I am going to take myself off to bed.
I'm quite sure we will meet in cyber-space soon again. Keep up the good fight. I'm sure you will get your hearts desire soon enough.
Helen Horn Musser
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Thank you Phyllis, for that affirmation

Helen Horn Musser
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Thank you, John, for your last comment; alas the remark was there and may still be there. I understand your point; I was trying to draw attention to how a woman is looked upon in the world at large and I don't think it is any different in the arts. Georgia Okeefe had a man who fought for her and guided her in the business of art with great support. She went straight to the top. She was a master painter and deserved her attention and I hope history does not forget her. Without his help who knows? Men rule the world and a woman with any incite understands that. Maybe someday it will change.

Sandy Askey-Adams
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Good night John..

Pleasant dreams about women having equal representation in the art world with exhibits and collections held in the same percentages as men.... and about women power finally taking effect.

:)Sandy
John Smith
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Helen, if you girls can band together and put up a scrap like you have tonight, then I have little doubt that you can make it change.
Good night
Helen Horn Musser
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Thank you for your affirmation; it is encouraging. Have a good rest and Sweetdreams

Dalia Bar-Dror
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hi again, john,

i'll simplify it: if it all begins and ends in the easel - that means it's all about the level of talent. simply meaning, as u said: if u are good, unique and original - u don't need anything else - that alone will open all doors to you, and if doors are slammed in your face - it's not cos u are a woman, it's just cos u are not good enough.

SO NOT.

what we are saying is that EQUALLY talented and original male and female artists would not progress as quickly or as far as each other.
it's not even true about two equally talented men artists!.. (and what we're trying to convey here, is that for women, (with equally proven talent)- it's much, much harder).

nothing to do with the level of their personal ambition or self belief, just the fact that women tend to hit more walls that are put in their way, to slow or block them, then men do.

if your high level of talent is all that u need to posess, as a key to doors in the art world - if it was so simple and straight forward - there wouldn't be any frustraited artists in the world, would they?

(haven't you met or heard of people who have 'fantastic hidden talents' and they live all their lives in frustration of not getting anywhere with them? (i bet u even have a few friends that fit that box, male and female).

and another little thing: it started with a little assumption of yours, based on some superficial stats from yr area, which suggest that the majority of galleries are owned by women. within 2-3 comments - u upgraded this assumption to a conclusion, as if in the last few hours this assumption was established as a fact, and as if it was accepted as such by us.

two sad real life facts for u:

1. no, the majority of galleries are not owned by women.

2. it's very naive of u to say: "hey, it's a FACT that women rull the galleries world, and since 'the power' is in 'female hands', then "where is the problem"? cos as i mentioned in one of my previous comments - even the women owners of galleries - obey the un admitted but well practiced male rules, and participate in the same game, assisting these crooked values to go on.
Phyllis Von Holdt
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John, please try to understand what Sandy is saying. Her comments are meant to help you see what women go through. Try to understand what discrimination is.
Dalia Bar-Dror
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yes, Sandy, u are coming through loud and clear..:-)
Judy Mudd
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Well, I left for just a little while and look what I missed! Thank you Sandy for your information and reference to American Artist--I'll have to look for the article. And, Dalia--what wonderful, expressive thoughts--I couldn't have said it better myself. Phyllis, Helen--well, all of you are impressive. Nice to see there are scrappy women out there fighting along side me! Next time I get into a corner, I'm asking all of you for help! :o) Hopefully, John will come back to the fold so we can continue to enlighten him.
Helen Horn Musser
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Judy, I'm with you on this subject. Call on me when you feel the need. Children teach Mothers to delay gratification as soon as they are born. We don't eat until they are fed; we don't sleep until they are asleep, we have to be there 24/7 for our babies. Not even mentioning the diaper changing and other services we do. Of course, I loved my babies and would not take for either one of them. They have grown into fine young men.

Helen Horn Musser
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I believe John will see the light.

Phyllis Von Holdt
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Are you kidding, Judy? He probably ran home with his tail between his legs! ;) Ha-ha-ha.
Seriously, I hope we weren't too hard on him. After all, he's just a man.

Phyllis Von Holdt
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Are you an eternal optimist, Helen? Well, that's better than looking at the dark side.
Helen Horn Musser
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Yes, Phyllis, I think it has to do with a happy childhood and faith in God. If I could change the world all children would have a happy home and taught Bible

Phyllis Von Holdt
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And the world would be a better place, Helen! Keep on just as you are because I'm sure you are an inspiration to people around you.
:)

Helen Horn Musser
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Thank you Phyllis, what a lovely thing to say. You too are inspirational with your comments!

John Smith
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Judy, I'm here! It was after midnight here in South Africa (where I am writing fro).I needed to get to sleep as you are doing now as I write this response. I very clearly explained that when I signed off.

I have been a career artist for 40 years and have taught art privately for over 30 years. I have served on scores of arts committees regionally and nationally so I am not likely to run away from a debate. Especially an interesting one. Don't assume things.

Saying that Phyllis, I feel your remark about "him running home with his tail between his legs" was nasty and unnecessary. It does your cause little good. I was not criticizing you ladies but saying do something about it.

There is an old story Phyllis about an old hound who sits on a thorn. He howls and howls but is too lazy or too afraid to move elsewhere.
Complaining is not much use unless you are prepared to change things. As Clint says "Go change the world!" A good motto.

You make some really good points Dalia but I said very clearly twice - 'where I am' most of the Galleries are now owned by women. This site goes to the world not only the USA. I do not know what you have in America but from reading your articles and listening to your debates it seems your problems and aspirations are little different from ours. Or Australia's or Britain's for that matter.

Helen and Lori have my contact details and I am happy for them to let you have my website/e-mail addresses and you can read what my thoughts are on art if you like. I do try and change things and have done for over 40 years. I have some experience of trying to change things. It can be done if you have the courage and the will.

In closing, in my first marriage my wife hated the fact that I was an artist. She said it was not a mans job but men who became artists were little boys who did not want to grow up. That hurt.
I had to make a choice of carrying on with my art or being married to her. I chose the art. It broke my heart to leave my kids, but in a while they chose to come to me. We have been incredibly close ever since. I do know what bringing kids up is all about. I did change nappies and got up at night, did lift clubs and all the rest.

My second wife (We have been married for 20 years now is a High-school art teacher and one of our top Calligraphers. We often/continually discuss the problems that women (and men) face in the Art Industry. Please do not treat me as an idiot that has no idea about womens or mens issues.

According to what you indicate your country is lagging behind mine as far as woman's rights are concerned, so I guess there is another choice -move to South Africa or kick some butt over there.

I find it rather strange that there was not a single male voice in this long and sometimes heated discussion. Maybe you have more power and are more intimidating than you imagine? So get off that thorn and change things. You can of you want to.
Dalia Bar-Dror
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hi Judy Mudd, big thank you! i'm flattered, again!

and John: as i was reading the post 'he (John) probably ran away with his tail between his legs' - i cringed, cos i read every single post in this facinating debate/discussion, and i knew phyllis just jumped the gun without reading your 'signing out' for the night post.
i, myself went to sleep shortly after u, cos it was after midnight here too (the UK).

so, on behalf of myself and any other girls here who'd allow me to do so on their behalf - i apologise for that remark, it was not necessary.

but, John, I don't treat u as an idiot at all. i just think u are un aware of the real difficulties that exist in the women's world, to this day. (in the UK too)!'modern' and 'enlightened' UK, my foot....

from your posts i can see that u adamantly maintain yr belief that it's a very simple 'formula':

'you are a good artist' = 'doors open to u'.

'doors don't open' = 'you are not good enough'.

'women own galleries' = 'women hold the power in art decision making'.

'if women are discriminated where u are' = 'leave to another country!'

'if u choose to stay' = 'all u need to do is WANT to change things, and they immediately will'.

all big changes in society took decades or even centuries to happen, they are all gradual and slow.
we've moved forward a lot since the days when women artists were all together an embarrasment and shame to their families, and they needed to addopt a FULLY MALE NAME for their art, to be sold or taken seriously.
thankfully, we are born in MORE modern times, and we can now proudly and openly sign with our FEMALE names, but it will take a few more generations of hard work and costly fight, until the female artists of the future will look back to our time, with dismay, and giggle about how 'enlightened' we thought ourselves to be, when, in fact our times would be titled (very deservingly) as: 'the modern dark ages'.


Dalia Bar-Dror
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a call to other male artists (and more female views) to add their two cents to this debate!

MOSHE, EIFO ATA? (where are u)?......

i'm curious to read what all of u have to add to all these facinating posts from the last few days.
John Smith
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Thanks Dalia, I appreciate that. I spent time in England last year and know what you are saying.
I'm not meaning to make as if there are no problems, but women can network, and by networking you can make changes and a big difference. There is power in numbers and right usually overcomes wrong eventually.
If nothing is done then nothing will change. No-one says that is easy but if each one tries something pro-active things can be achieved. Crying about it will not change anything.
I think I have said enough.
Again you make some very good points.
Phyllis Von Holdt
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John, for what it's worth, I apologize.

Good story about the hound and the thorn. There are times, though, when the thorn can be the lesser of two evils. I'm thinking of the times when people are faced with 'do follow I my heart or do I do the necessary work to keep my family taken care of'.

Again, I'm sorry for my stupid comment.

John Smith
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Apology accepted Phyllis.
We are not at war with each other but are all trying to make the Art Industry a better and fairer place. I'ts only by robust and honest discussion, trying to solve problems, and then acting on potential solutions that we can achieve that. So lets fight on the same side even if we do not always agree.
Phyllis Von Holdt
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Thanks, John. As Dalia said, I read it and responded too quickly without reading on.

Deborah Weinstein
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John, I had just logged on intending to come to your defense this morning and am delighted to find you defending yourself so ably. I too wondered where the other men went. I suspect they simply turned off this discussion stream when it grew unpleasant. It had turned into a lose-lose conversation that we have all had too many times before. I really hate pile-ons, no matter who, no matter why, many people on one side, one on the other. I am amazed by how quickly this seems to happen online. To anyone who is reading this, remember to read and re-read your posts before clicking "send." The more upset you are when you write, the more likely it is that you are making unwarranted assumptions about people you don't know. We can't see each other's facial expressions or read the body language, and we actually know very little about one another. Give everyone the benefit of the doubt, avoid sarcasm, keep it civil and when possible professional as well. This site is after all about art marketing.
Deborah Weinstein
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I think that should be loose-loose. Ha! I should have taken my own advice and proofread my post one last time.
John Smith
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Thanks for the support Deborah. Much appreciated!
Helen Horn Musser
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I agree with you Phyllis, could not break up my family for art's sake. Loved them too much. It has obviously worked for you, John, and I am thankful for that.

Helen Horn Musser
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John, not crying; just defending our plight. Please, don't leave us we need your point of view on everything.

John Smith
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I'm not leaving Helen, this is the first time I've visited the USA - and even if its via cyberspace its been interesting.
Helen Horn Musser
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Good for you, John, we look forward to all your opinions

Phyllis Von Holdt
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Thank you, Helen. That was the point I was trying to make. I think men have a difficult time trying to see things from our viewpoint because they don't have to fight for equality.

Moshe Mikanovsky
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Ladies, Gentlemen (also for you reading only),

I was quite excited to read the exchange between everyone here, although I must admit I was too busy to go into all details of the "arguments".
I do have my two cents to throw in (like thinking of J.K.Rollings and how in the beginning of her amazing success I had no idea if it was a man or a woman, nor did I really care. Also thinking about the fact that for me, personally, I felt it was much harder, and still is, to get my foot into the art world on full time basis because I am a man. Because I have to be the bread-maker of my family, and I just can't leave my day job yet. So I always had in my mind that women actually have it much easier, that is of course if they have a bread-maker at home...).

BUT, I decided to say something completely different here. Maybe move everyone from words to actions! Lots of suggested were thrown here at everyone, but where are the actions? Is it up to each one of us individually, or is there something we can do as a group to make a change?

So just brainstorming here, and we can take it offline as well, is there anything we can do as a group of strong minded creatives? Like have an art show together that will raise the awareness that women and men ARE the same (same prices for example.... no artist names, just initials.... whatever....)

OK, what's next?

Cheers
Moshe

Sandy Askey-Adams
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Hello Moshe..

Sorry, but I must say that there will be no convincing me that women have it easier in the art world than men.
It has been written and documented that they have not throughout history. As I said in an earlier comment, even American Artist magazine stated that fact in an article their latest issue.

There are already art shows together with men and women and I do not feel that will raise any awareness. It will take time and will need to be done by women (with a few men who really do see and believe the difference between men and women in the field) and eventually (just as the women's vote came into being) it will sink in that women also have art work worthy of the same excellent recognition that men have had throughout the centuries.
Perhaps then too, the percentages will rise for women's art being accepted and hanging in the art galleries to equal men's work hanging in them and/or having solo shows.

:)Sandy
John Smith
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Frankly Sandy, I do not think being an artist is easy for anyone and sadly there is not much we can do about history now. I honestly believe most men would give an arm and a leg to have the list of credits you have, or to able to paint like you do.
Do you really believe you have been unfairly treated? I'm just curious.
Phyllis Von Holdt
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John is probably correct in saying that it hasn't always been easy for a man to be an artist but I do believe that it's easier for a man to be taken seriously than for a woman. It may be easier for women today than it was 100 years ago but many of us are still fighting the gender battle.
John Smith
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Thanks Phyllis,
Moshe made a serious offer/attempt at doing something proactive and it sounded to me like he was shot down?
C'mon ladies if you are unhappy with things the way they are you must have some suggestions/ideas as how to change things, or is it going to be like that old hound sitting on the thorn and howling?

Moshe said he was offering a brain-storming session-so brainstorm!
Sandy Askey-Adams
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John..

Being an artist for anyone .. it is true, is not so easy. I know that. Especially in this kind of economy, but we are handling it the best way we can just as any other business is trying to handle it. Some do have it easier though.
(And yes, I do look at it as a business too.)

Thank you for the comment about my work John and my background, but I have gone thru blood, sweat and tears and I am still NOT anywhere at all near where I would love to be, nor is my work. So much road to travel. There is no horizon. I always feel I should be further ahead because of doing the art all my life. AND I should. Not thru anyone else fault, but thu my own.

You asked me John if I really believe I have been treated unfairly...yes. It is not a belief, but a reality that has occured throughout my life as an artist... on and off. Take the good with the bad as with everything we each do in life.
AND, there were many times also as I look back, I did not deserve the praise that I may have received.
Aside from gender bias...though, An artist can be mistreated or be unfairly treated simply because another artist does not like that you are working in the same medium as what they are..and may keep you from getting into an art show because of it, etc... There is also that kind of bias. I have been there. So in answer to your question...
Yes, indeed there have been timea I have been unfairly treated.
BUT, isn't that for most every artist at one time or another??? Or for that matter, anyone in most any other profession.

However, I speak of all women who are artists and do not get a fair deal in a man's world that yes, I agree is (SLOWLY) changing.

JOHN, I must tell you...you are really very kind, thoughtful and considerate, knowledgeable and a wonderful artist to take your time and join in on this type of conversation. Not many men would bother as they might deem it not worth their time. Thank you for all your input and the respect you show toward women.

Best to you,
Artfully,
:)Sandy
Phyllis Von Holdt
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John, I did not mean to shoot anyone down.
John Smith
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Thanks Sandy,
There is no gender in the meeting of minds.

Art is not for cowards, and anyone that has stayed the course deserves respect and admiration.

Sadly there are no great destinations for most, but endless hills and valleys. The best we can do is enjoy the journey. With all it's pitfalls we do have the best career in the world. Most of us do not even have to concern ourselves with traffic on our way to work. We live in our minds, and what can be more rewarding and beautiful than that?
The recession will pass and there will be other obstacles, but they will pass and we will go on and on and on....
John Smith
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No you didn't Phyllis and I apologize if you thought that I was inferring that you did.
I meant that after Moshe made his honest suggestion there was silence, and silence can be a rejection. All the people who were so enthusiastically entering into the debate now had nothing to say - I find that odd? Hence my reference to the dog sitting on the thorn but will not move.

I have been watching the rescue of the miners in Chili on TV. The humanity of rescuers and rescued give me hope for the world tonight. No movie or novel can be so dramatic and full of hope.
Dalia Bar-Dror
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hi, boys and girls... i've been out all day, but am back now.

about the suggestions Moshe offered: i agree with Sandy, stating that a mixed exhibition isn't the solution, and it wasn't shooting the well intended idea down either.

there are countless mixed shows everywhere for years. women nowdays are not (to my knowledge) refused to participate in exhibitions, solely for their gendre, (like being refused joining certain golf clubs or other 'man only' clubs). that's not the problem.

the problem lies in the general mentality, and in the long existing and enduring general view that women (in any professional field), are second class act, and second class human, in the way they are allowed to be treated.

the change should not, and cannot be limited to the art world alone.
in order for the change to be a real deep and lasting one,it should envelope and wash over and clense the minds of the next generationS of BOTH male and female. and it should be done properly from the youngest age possible, before the young minds are contaminated with the poison of the old world values.

it should be an integral part of the curriculum of schools (not as a one off token visit of a speaker to school). it should be represented in every school book, in every lesson, by every teacher - as an everyday policy and behaviour. like good manners and respect, charity, anti bulling, health and safety, hygiene, and sex education. it should be seen and PRACTICED in every aspect of the child's life in and then out of school: in the TV programmes, in books and movies, in places of work, in the streets, and at home.

it's a huge project, that will need the policies and decision makers on all levels, (still mostly men...) - understand this, believe in this, commit to this, and practice what they preach in their own real lives too. it mustn't just be pretty words on paper and in empty 'politically correct' rules and laws that hide the ugliness that keep living and kicking and lurking under the surface.

it's not really in our hands to change, John. it's in the hands of those who don't see anything wrong with how things stand now, and more and more ignorant new generations of boys and girls come out to the world, and continue the tradition of their parents and teachers, and all the distorted modern poor role models that they follow.

so u see, John, that's the REAL MAGNITUDE of the needed change. only when that will finally happen FOR REAL - that the poor old dog will find some rest to his sore bottom... :-)
Marilyn Gillis
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I actually sent this on 10/11 but just realized it never went through.

As recently as the early to mid 1900's women weren't allowed ton sell their art and were discouraged from painting.

Now we can paint to our hearts content AND sell it. There are many successful women artists OUT THERE.
Price differences on gender based art can be attributed to several factors. The women undervalue their own work, trying to sell in a traditionally based market instead of a progressively based market, who you know/don't know,accepting the lower pricesbecause "you're unknown/new' or whatever other silly rationalization "they" give you, etc, etc.

So if a woman decides to sell her art in Washington DC ( a traditionally based market) then she can expect to have her art underpriced in comparison to a man's.

Marilyn

Marilyn Gillis
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Moshe,
I think having a show with signatures covered and just initials sounds like a god idea. Having all gender based information removed could prove/disprove bias.

Marilyn
John Smith
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Dalia, I too would like a perfect world, but long journey's start with one little step. Preferably a bold step rather than a tentative one, but still a small step. It is very unlikely, in fact impossible we can start at our destination.
There are so many problems in the world, but I, and I doubt you, can sort them all out-so let us start with art.
If we can sort out one or two problems in the visual arts industry we are well on our way.
Sadly as one of the wiser arts administrators in my country said at a conference here some time back, "Trying to organize Artists, or getting them to work together is like herding cats"

I do believe in networking though, and if sufficient people believe in the same thing/s mountains can be moved. I believe that.
Let us start with what we have, and what we can change, and after we have taken those baby steps we can then go change the world.
Sandy Askey-Adams
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Hmmm, covering signatures, or using just initals...????????????
There were some shows done in that way years ago that I had been a part of and it became a joke. The artists styles stood out even more than their signatures. Artists styles can be and are very recognizable especially by the seasoned artist.
Not that all the styles would be recognized, but it only takes for a couple or a few styles to be recognized enough to put a crack in the system or idea.

:)Sandy
Marilyn Gillis
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Sandy,
You're negativity is sooooo overwhelming! One show, years ago, where apparently many people knew each other and the artists works does not qualify as an unbiased show.
You are so hard on yourself. It's a well know fact in many circles that people who are so hard on themselves are hard on all those around them.
So good luck!
Today I received an invitation from an art gallery that deals in ancient art to link with their site. They have a google page rank of 4. I'm impressed enough with their site to exchange links and I'm honored by the invitation.
John Smith
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You have a creative mind Sandy - offer an alternative!
Phyllis Von Holdt
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I think we are taking Moshe's suggestion too literally. He did, after all, suggest brainstorming. That's the part we should be taking literally.

Also, I think the main objective here should be to help the person next to us who is struggling and to make things easier for the next generation, even if it's just one baby step at a time.
Sandy Askey-Adams
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Mairlyn..
You are sooooooooooooo totally wrong about me. So absolutely wrong.
I am stating facts...and a fact does not make it negative or not. It just is.

Too, too funny. I am laughing here.

I am not hard on those around me...go to facebook and see the over 15 artist groups that I created meant to help artists from beginners to the most successful.
Artist groups that encourage one another, etc... and you will find, should you ask any of those artists who are members of those groups...if you even mentioned that I was negative, they would highly protest because they do know me.

:)Sandy

John Smith
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Now,now, ladies, lets not be like those cats that cannot be herded/work together. We are not the enemy but the enemy is narrow-minded society.

I'm sure you are going to come up with some great ideas, and remember great creative minds have no gender. Just a meeting of minds.
While you are doing that (Thinking up possibilities)it is almost midnight here and I have not been too well so am taking myself to bed. Have a great afternoon and evening. I think like me, Dalia in the UK has run out of day. Good night all!
Sandy Askey-Adams
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To John and everyone...

Of those over 15 art groups that I mentioned in an above post that I created on facebook, one of those groups is for women artists only.
I questioned starting the group for women artists only, but the more I heard, the more reason to have one.

I did not want to do it out of bias or against men artists who I sure enough do respect and I was afraid that the group would be taken wrong by men. It was not. A few men asked if I was going to start a group for me also...I am still thinking of doing that. But, everyone SEEMED to have understood the why of such a group for women. Women from all over the world welcomed the group and the opportunity to join and post their work. They were grateful and keep expressing how grateful they are for the group.

It was my way of bringing attention to the art of the woman artist.

John,
that group is one of my "creative" ways of trying to help women artists.
Marilyn...it is also a way to help stop the bias and the negativity against women artists.

BTW, anyone interested in joining any of those group sites and they are GREAT artist groups go on facbook and look me up. They are all posted on my profile/wall page.

See you there!:)Sandy
Sandy Askey-Adams
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Correction in a sentence up above where the men asked if I was going to start a group for men too...I missed the letter "N" somehow which was suppose to read MEN, not Me. LOL Sorry about that.
Again the problem is with emailing this stuff, no one can see the expressions or body language and things can be misunderstood. Just trying to make sure that was not misunderstood.

:)Sandy
Marilyn Gillis
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Sandy,
You're so funny!
You're right, you're not negative. I apparently misinterpreted how you present yourself here.

It's not negative to say you should be better than you are or you should have accomplished more by now or to boo hoo an idea because it's been tried before and didn't work.

:) Marilyn
Marilyn Gillis
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John,
That was my last comment to Sandy on that subject. I'm glad everyone decided to stop insulting you. I was prepared to defend you but you did a lovely job of doing it yourself and beat me to it.

Marilyn
Sandy Askey-Adams
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Marilyn..
I cannot figure out why you felt it necessary to attack me or try to find fault with what I had written...or be so sarcastic.

Yes, you did misunderstand all I had written. As I said before, you do not know me at all.

No, it is not negative to say I should be better than what I am.
I think most artists strive every day to do their next painting better than the one they did yesterday. That is not being negative. That is simply wanting to progress with one's work. AND, if an artist is unable to recognize those areas where they need to improve, then they cannot improve.
I will add, that I am grateful, very grateful for where I am in the art field right now, but I can still say there is need for improvement.
Thank goodness the challenge presents itself everyday to do better work.

Sandy
Phyllis Von Holdt
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I agree with you, Sandy. To me, the artist is always learning and growing.

Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
Thank you Phyllis.

My husband just gave me his opinion on this subject about using initials or covering up names for an art show ... or women having to use their initials to sign their paintings because they think it will further progress their career.

He feels it is NOT being honest with who the artist really is, male or female, and it creates deception. One has to be true to oneself, and to present or try to represent oneself as not being who they are does not help the situation...even if to prove a point.

Art is about truth.
:)Sandy
Dalia Bar-Dror
via canvoo.com
when i was younger, (in my teens and early twenties), i used to sign just with my first name: Dalia.

some more experienced artists, and my art teachers, commented that it doesn't seem 'professional' enough, and told me i should sign my full name.

so, i upgraded my signature to the full Dalia Bar-Dror.

then some other 'expert' told me that if i want to make an impression, i better sign in English. (to remind u, my original language is Hebrew).
i disagreed. i was living in a Hebrew speaking country. i felt that denying my own language, and signing in a foreign (although understood there) language - felt pompous and presumptious to me, so i stuck to my guns and kept the Hebrew signature.

7 years ago, i moved to the UK (another long story for another time), and then i thought: my Hebrew 'strange looking letteres' signature might look exotic to the local eyes, but they won't be able to read it. on the other hand i didn't want to just lose my Hebrew roots and identity, which i'm very proud of.

so the result is a long line (with small writing), of my full name in both languages...
how 'bout that?......:-)
Helen Horn Musser
via canvoo.com
Sandy, you need re-enforcement here and I want to give it. I do beg to differ with your husband's comment about initials; many men use initials, would he consider thaat deceptive? Some of our comments have not been encouraging to each other and we should be ashamed. Clint did not give this forum for insulting one another. Chill!

Helen Horn Musser
via canvoo.com
Dalia, sounds good to me; it is our choice how we sign our paintings and judging signatures is a pure waste of time

Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
Dalia, I like your name alot...and Helen, I agree with you.

I have something interesting to share here...
One of the Hudson River Painters...and it is a woman. There are times we think of them as being all men. They were not.
But, what I found interesting is the name of a woman artist. Mrs. A. T. Oakes (active 1851 - 1886) That is the name she used and was known as... she not only used initials, but added the Mrs. also.
From the book I have been reading, the impression of her is that she led a vital flourishing career with very considerable public and professional acceptance...woman or not.
Her early training is not known and there are only sketchy details of her life. But, she had a broad range of travel and had a particular preference for landscape work. Her work was accepted into some of the finest art exhibitions of the time.

If she had only used the initials A. T. there may have been some wonderment as to the gender of the painter, or maybe all would have just assumed that the painter was male, but since she added the MRS. it left no question as to her being female. AND, she was successful and known at a time when it was not as enlightened as today.

:)Sandy
Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
Laura Woodward was her name and she was another Hudson River painter. She was active from 1872- 1889.
Here are two examples of women artists from another century who were accepted and known for their outstanding talent in the art world.

They might be aghast at this topic and ask us ... "Why are you wasting all your time on this rubbish about names? It does not matter what name you use, it matters instead what you have to say with each painting you do."

Woodward painted throughout the Northeast and exhibited work done in the Adirondack, Catskill, Green and White Mountains. She also painted inspiring subjects she found in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Connecticut and along the coasts of Massachusetts and Maine. She especially was drawn to painting rivers and streams and woodlands.
A quote from the book about her...
"Her hand is very much her own --- totally assured, and more than strong enough to stand in the midst of her male colleagues. The refined sensibility manifest in Woodward's work reveals a rich talent and fine mind too-little known today."

Perhaps we are getting a bit out of hand about the bias,,,not saying it isn't there, it is...but, if these two women followed their passion without concern whether or not they would be accepted because of being female, they would not have been the artists they became. And, my gosh...it was harder back then. Look what they each accomplished.

:)Sandy
Phyllis Von Holdt
via canvoo.com
I agree, Sandy, art is about truth and I sign my full name. Saturday, though, I watched a demo (at an art show) done by a man who used two initials and a name, possibly not his initials and possibly not his last name (Example: I.I. John). I don't care what he calls himself; he was good. Why ask for more?
Helen Horn Musser
via canvoo.com
Sandy, I can understand why you are admiring this ladies courage and her husband must have been very confident in himself to support her. I am not going down this road; it is devisive and makes women appear like stupidoes to argue this. It is a pure waste of time and thought process. Let's keep our heads together and in our art; that will be uplifting to all of us.

Jo Allebach
via canvoo.com
It seems to be getting repetitive.

Dalia Bar-Dror
via canvoo.com
Helen and Sandy - thanks!

and, by the way, who is this Clint you keep refering to? i thought this forum has been created by Moshe. (or is 'Clint' a nick name u gave Moshe, inspired by the action hero/film star, Clint Eastwood)?
John Smith
via canvoo.com
Hi Dalia, The ladies you are talking to would probably fast asleep at this time. They are 6 or 7 hours behind us. I think I can answer your question.
Moshe posted the original question/article but Clint is the boss-man. If you go right back to the top you can click on CANVOO Home, and read all about the website, blog and the rest.
John Smith
via canvoo.com
I think that I have said enough on this subject and will withdraw after this.
I think it is good that Sandy mentions female artists who were successful and became famous. It is obviously something that many women feel very strongly about, and I believe we have identified problems in this debate and have quite a few people thinking about solving the problem. Many who have been watching and reading but not entering the fray for whatever reason.

Einstein said that identifying the problem clearly was half the problem solved. I agree with that. WE also now know that Sandy has in fact been proactive and started among other organisation an all woman collective. I think that is great but would I think be happier to have more equally balanced groups.

There is no doubt there were many, many very able and famous female artists. Just from memory there was Lempicka, Freda Kahlo, Georgia O'Keefe, a number of female Impressionists such as Marie Cassat (Who was American), Berthe Morisot and Eva Gonzales. Marie Bracquemond was one of that group who clashed with her husband's art interests and gave up painting for the sake of piece (Very sad)
There Artistssuch a Dame Laura Knight from England who painted fantastic dance paintings and circus pictures and was very famous. The list is long.

I believe one of the reasons why there were so few female artists much earlier than that was that pre 1800's the procurement and processing of pigment and materials was arduous and dangerous in the extreme,. Many of the pigments were expensive, many were extremely toxic ( Even Flake white and the Chrome range) and hard to come by. Artists then had to grind the paint (Even watercolour)and prepare the supports, papers and the rest. Paint was stored in pig's bladders and it was a dangerous and tedious business.

I believe women started entering art after moist watercolours had been invented and after the industrial age when a variety of safe pigments were discovered, processed and packed in tubes.

That is history and no-one needs to feel bad about that. Now we know that creativity is just that and when it comes to thinking no gender has copyright on that.
Good luck girls. I am out of here. I'll fined you where there are other problems we need to discuss.
Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
Hello:

Just for the record...:) and I am saying that kindly, the two women artists I spoke of were oil painters...and from what I have read, most were.

And someone asked who Clint was. He is the genius behind Fine Art Views and all the Artists web sites. Where would we be without him and his crews expertise on web site design and so many other things related to this site, etc..???
He someone of great creativity and insight.

:)Sandy
John Smith
via canvoo.com
Please forgive the glitches in my last entry. Stupidly I did not read it through till after I had posted it. I'm sure it made some sense. I certainly hope it did? :}
Holly J Banks
via canvoo.com
I agree with John. I have always thought of musicians and artists as rather single minded in their concern only for the skill and creativity of the work Race,gender,whatever is irrelevant to us and to those who love our product.
Dalia Bar-Dror
via canvoo.com
thanks John and Sandy for yr answers about Clint.

after reading about him, i looked him up in the top of the page, as suggested, and yeah, it looks like his creativity and commitment to assist artists on line in admired by many.
Deborah Weinstein
via canvoo.com
John, small glitches don't matter. (A Freudian typo about a female artist giving up art for the sake of "piece" was amusing.) I've enjoyed and agreed with everything you've written up until now, except for your habit of referring to groups of people you know only through the ethernet collectively as "ladies" and "girls." It is condescending and in my opinion inappropriate.
Dalia Bar-Dror
via canvoo.com
hi Deborah,

i ,myself addressed this group in one of my earlier posts as 'boys and girls'. i don't see anything demeaning or condescending about it.
we are a fairly large group of women participating in this debate, and John wished are luck in our 'fight'. i didn't expect him to name each of us, individually while doing so.

calling a woman 'lady' is respectful, and calling a woman 'girl' is effectionate and friendly.
(when i addressed a group of mature women artists i belong to, in my town, they giggled with pleasure, saying it's long since they were called 'girls', and that it took them back to their youth). no one protested that it's condescending or demeaning in any way.

we are shooting ourselves in the foot, by being 'insulted' where there is nothing to get insulted or upset about, and not doing women in general a good service, when we get fussy about the wrong issues.
we have bigger and more significant battles to invest our energy and feictiness in. seriously.

after all, he's on our side, give the guy a break!

John Smith
via canvoo.com
Thanks Marilyn,
Artcyclopedia is great, and even a front page section on female painters of the renaissance.

Do I refer to them as female painters or women painters? I do not want to step on anyone's sensitivities.
Great link.
Holly J Banks
via canvoo.com
AAGH Let's get over our sensitivities and let people communicate normally!
Dalia Bar-Dror
via canvoo.com
HALELUYA, Holly! thank you!

that's the point i was trying to convey last night (just 2 posts before yours, addressing Deborah).

society is now paralized, (by its own hands), and un able to just comunicate normally anymore: one group of people being over sensitive and fussy over non-issues, a second group of well meaning people create and coin the new era political correctness, and keep replacing old terms with new ones, (even in cases when there was nothing wrong with the old ones), deciding on what's right or wrong to say - and the rest of the people are all of us: confused, paralized, and too afraid to voice simple opinions and views for fear of offending this or the other, just cos we didn't get the memo of what's the latest 'right' terminology to use.

get over it, and get your feathers ruffled only in justified cases - otherwise, no one would take our legitimate offenses seriously, and we'll just play into their hands, confirming what cry babies, hysterical creatures women are. (i really hate that ugly, patronising term, being assosiated with women).
Dalia Bar-Dror
via canvoo.com
ps, Holly,

what does AAGH stand for? :-)
Dalia Bar-Dror
via canvoo.com
oh, Deborah, i re-read yr post, and noticed a term u used that i forgot to mention in my response to u:

you said that refering to women as 'girls', and 'ladies', is condescending and 'INAPPROPRIATE'.

seriously, girl, 'inappropriate'? such harsh terminology should be used in cases of un welcome physical contact or advances. or for real foul language, rude, abusive or humiliating name calling.

being called 'lady' or 'girl' is none of the above, and is nothing other than respectful and effectionate, especially in this context.

keep things in perspective.

SHABAT SHALOM! :-)


Deborah Weinstein
via canvoo.com
Dahlia, you are right and wrong about a number of important things, but I'd prefer to make the discussion private. Send your email address to mdeborah@cox.net if you are interested in my response.

Aargh is a noise, not a word. It's meant to express a sense of helpless frustration, as when things get out of control, as this discussion stream has on one or two occasions.
Dalia Bar-Dror
via canvoo.com
thanks, Deborah.

i'll e-mail u, although i can't see what can be so private that u can't tell me here.

never the less - my e-mail is on it's way. :-)
John Smith
via canvoo.com
Deborah,
I love your work. Wonderful paintings and drawings.
Deborah Weinstein
via canvoo.com
Flattery will get you everywhere, John. You are a sweetheart - Don't think I didn't notice this before.

But I have gray hair and wrinkles, and I HATE being called a girl!
John Smith
via canvoo.com
It wasn't meant as flattery Deborah. But as fact.

I have hardly any hair and far more wrinkles than you...to me anyone who is younger than I am is a girl..meant in the nicest possible way :)

Deborah Weinstein
via canvoo.com
John, I tried to find your website at Canvoo, but you are not among the Smiths. Where is your website? And how did you find mine?
Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
Deborah..

All you have to do is click on his name here on his comments and it takes you directly to his web site...which is possibly the way he found yours.

:)Sandy
Sandy Askey-Adams
via canvoo.com
,,,And btw Deborah...,,,I forgot to mention.. John's work is outstanding.
:)Sandy
John Smith
via canvoo.com
Hi Deborah, If you go to the FineArtViews release you receive every day, and then scroll to the list of people who comment most. You then click on the name and their website opens right up. As yours did :)
Deborah Weinstein
via canvoo.com
John, for reasons only the internet knows, doing the obvious wasn't working for me two days ago - but then it did. Your landscapes are wonderful. I was also engaged by your blog and your discussion of giclees and fraud. I am very new to the art scene and have only one foot - no, really, just a toe - in the marketing scene, but the intensely commercial environment that I landed in by accident when I rented a studio in Laguna Beach feels to me like an avalanche, i.e., a force of nature way bigger than me. I am puzzled and quite worried by the fact that the giclees I have had made of my favorite paintings look just as good to me or better than the originals, that people looking for things to buy seem to expect and WANT to see phony brush strokes in clear medium to make the giclees look like originals (I will never do it!!) (and will probably never sell anything). I am equally puzzled and perturbed by the fact that PhotoShop knows how to make better underpaintings than I do. But this is probably not the right way to start that discussion...
John Smith
via canvoo.com
Art is even more wonderful than sport once was Deborah. It is just some try and manipulate the original intention. Nothing wrong with selling your work either, and you can give (and receive) so much pleasure. There will always be people who try and spoil it but you just carry on and do what you know is right.

Early on in my painting career I found that there were people who would go to galleries and ask what was selling and then rush back to their studios and paint just that, and even take the imitated work back to the very same gallery and so 'shred' the original artists sales.
I decided right then I would do my own thing and 'look for the gaps' do the stuff that other artists weren't doing at that time. it has always worked for me. When I started writing I did the same. Where other writers were writing about the nice things, I wrote about the problems and the nasty bits that others didn't want to face up to. Once again it worked for me and I've been writing for 15 years. Please feel free to e-mail me if you want to chat. My contact numbers are on my website
I don't know if its good form to use Moshe's article to communicate. I think the gicle subject may be a good topic for a new post?
Moshe Mikanovsky
via canvoo.com
Ladies, Gentelmen,

I was amazed with the flurry of comments here regarding biased against women artists.
So, I put together a quick Art Poll to ask just that: Are women artists biased against in the art world?
I would love you to check it and vote your opinion, and add more comments in the following link: http://www.mikanovsky.com/blog/2010/10/17/art-poll-are-women-artists-biased-against-in-the-art-world/

Cheers
Moshe
Bonnie J. Smith
via canvoo.com
I love using ladies and girl. Once working with a curator on a exhibit I used "girls" then caught myself and she said "I want to always be a girl" and that is my feeling also. I am happy with myself and still feel like a girl on the inside with nothing to prove to anyone but myself.

I don't think I would ever change my name as I love it! My maiden name was to long and when I found out the name of my fathers real father that explained a lot of my own fathers feelings about his name.

Really, why make life complicated.
Phyllis Von Holdt
via canvoo.com
I agree, Bonnie. I'm a girl inside (never mind the age :) ). As for my name, it's fun to play with letters to make a different name but in reality, I'll keep what I was given.









 

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