Discuss: Knowing Who Collects Our Work

I respectfully disagree with Lee Ann. (But I really do appreciate your participation here) I think galleries SHOULD provide contact info to the artist. And, in all fairness, I think artists SHOULD provide any collector contact info they have to the gallery in return.

I've given a lot of thought to your question: "what other reason is there for having that info?"

Here are my thoughts:

1. Gallery goes out of business - the artist doesn't have to completely start his/her career over, because he/she will have the names.

2. Artist could sent personal thank you notes/christmas cards to good colllectors. Thereby making collectors happy and pushing more sales to the gallery.

3. Artist could send marketing messages to collectors at ARTISTS EXPENSE that would SUPPORT the galleries efforts. (now the gallery doesn't have to do all the marketing stuff :-))

4. Collectors only have to go online to find artist anyway so "hiding" the information is a kind of a non-solution anyway.

5. If the pieces are on "consignment" legally those names probably belong to the artist anyway (IANAL could be wrong on that) - gallery could buy the paintings up front and that would end this discussion.

6. I think if the gallery and artist can't work as a team, come to terms, trust each other then they simply shouldn't work together. They shouldn't each try to "hide" info from the other one.

I say all this as a person who was in the gallery business for 16 years and an owner of an art gallery for 11 years. At that time, our best selling artist, whom I trusted completely did get collector names, and was always happy to provide names to the gallery as well.

Absolutely agree with points 4and6. Times have changed - buyers used to buy through a gallery because they had no access to the artist - now every artist has a web presence. Artists and galleries have to change with the times and work together. Surely teamwork's a stronger strategy than individual effort? Just because a method used to work doesn't mean it's right for today.

Clint you bring up some valid points. Several of the galleries I once worked with are now out of business. In many cases collectors have contacted me through my website since they don't know where to find my work now and want to let me know they are enjoying their paintings.

I've been following your discussions for quite awhile, Clint, so I knew I'd get the response you posted above ;)

I wish we could all be as open and honest as such sharing would require. And it's absolutely true that a great many artists have an online presence outside of the galleries that represent them, so collectors certainly can find them if they choose to. Making it easier to circumvent a gallery doesn't make it right, though. My point is just that if you want to deal with the collectors, then do it. It's easier than ever today to sell without a gallery at all. An artist can do very well for himself if his work is good and he is comfortable (and efficient) with marketing. But if he isn't a 'people person' or has a terrible time tooting his own horn, a gallery ought to be able to rest assured that their efforts on his behalf will be rewarded. Seems only fair. And I'd bet you a donut you can't name me a single gallery that hasn't had this problem before.

Robert (Lemler) - I'm curious - and you don't have to answer if you don't want to. But you're a well-known accomplished artist, and you're saying you agree with my points - do you get collector info from your galleries?

Good question Lee Ann! Clint, are you still at work? Would love to hear your answers.

Clint, what you say is thought provoking.

One trend I've noticed that benefits galleries and artists is when a gallery has a huge invitational show or salon. Many of the artists showing are not in the "stable", but you can bet the work is usually the artists' best. Collectors seem to love to attend and compete for paintings that are available on the night of the opening.

I had breakfast with Scott Burdick a few years back - he was saying that galleries can't compete with event shows and museum shows because the folks who hold the event treat the artists like royalty - paying for their lodging, and sometimes taking only 30 percent commission.

I see many gallery owners hosting a series of invitational shows rather than just showcasing their "stable" on a regular basis. This doesn't require that the artists show with the gallery year round. There is no long term commitment on either side. The event only involves sales of the paintings selected for that show.

This is where I see galleries headed... series of events with invited artists. Tim Newton, an a collector who will be speaking at Weekend With the Masters this fall, loves traveling to these special shows. I've seen him in Tucson, Vermont, Maine, and other locations where he flies in for the event. Interestingly, I see the same group of collectors at a variety of events. They just all fly in for the weekend, buy up - visit with each other and go home.

I don't expect that all collectors enjoy this event atmosphere, but it sure does create a buzz and competition for getting their hands on the best work. At one of the Settler's West Small Works shows, an avid collector (not Tim) asked me to put my name in the box for a painting he dearly wanted. He asked a number of other attendees to do the same. If my name was called, he agreed to buy the painting. Some boxes were (for one painting) were filled with 50 names. When the collector's name is picked out the hat, there are squeals of delight along with groans of disappointment.

I'm currently working with Legacy Gallery for a 2012 show for the Putney Painters. They are also setting up a salon show. These events will be a big deal - with lots of advertising and magazine articles. Amy Sidman, who owns Argosy Gallery in Bar Harbor, ME is a friend of mine. Every few years she holds an invitational show at the Bar Harbor Inn. This summer she held the 2nd event of this type, and collectors flew in from all over the country to get a hold of the artists paintings that would be offered at this one show.

OK, well you get the idea. I think "stable of artists" will give way to "invitational events".

Lori - I agree with what your saying. My previous gallery hosted two invitational events a year (and still does) and a lot of sales came from those events. And you're correct - artists save their best works for those events. The gallery completely "owns" the brand of the event which means it's something the artist can't take away. And if the event has a good reputation there will always be great artists to provide the art. Think about Altermann's auctions, or Settler's West shows - collectors FLOCK to those and artists line up to get in those shows.

Combine events like that with the curated concept I outlined and gallery directors could invite artists whose works line up with the tastes of their best collectors......

Ah Ha! another thought just popped into my head.

If the artists are not committed to the gallery but only to the event, collectors are free to buy other works in the meantime from the artist's website. Perhaps some of the studies that lead to the great masterpiece they bought.

The Hudson River School painters worked all year producing that masterpiece that would get into the Salon in NYC. Many times there were sketches and smaller paintings that led to the final piece. The buyer of the salon masterpiece would often contact the artist to buy the work/studies that led to the final painting.

Besides when folks see that final masterpiece but missed out on the chance to buy it, they might contact the artist to buy some of the studies or similar works.

Hopefully, my brain will shut off of ideas and get to the act of painting now.

I can't comment on the curated events, but I've been bothered by this topic more lately than ever before because I have more repeat customers than I've ever had before. I have repeat clients because they receive my newsletter every month. I rarely have repeat clients from my gallery sales, however, and lately have driven more sales to my galleries than they have managed on their own. Even if galleries wish to refrain from disclosing collectors to artists, I think it is apparent some are not marketing as effectively as we artists are marketing ourselves. Galleries are only hurting themselves by not taking advantage of regular, professional communications with buyers. Out of sight, out of mind!

John, it's interesting that things are the same in other parts of the world. It implies that the system could use improvement.

Nancy, you bring up a point worth discussing - what if we are doing more marketing than the gallery and they are just getting our sales? Something seems wrong with that picture.

Clint something you said earlier which I just noticed today - about sharing pay for ads with the gallery but not getting the names of the collectors. Hmmm... doesn't seem fair to me. One gallery I worked with, suddenly came up with an agreement where they wanted half for all ads and openings. I decided to leave the gallery.

The way I deal with these things is that I'm the CEO of my business. I pay galleries a commission when they sell my work... they don't own me or hire me. I don't work for them, they work for me if I choose for them to. I want to only work with honest and fair galleries - not ones that take advantage of me. If none of us ever acted desperate when working with G's, they'd have to give us more respect.

A good business works like a good friendship, or at least a good relationship. Mutual respect and sharing is essential. I like Lori's attitude of being the CEO of her own company. She doesn't work for the gallery. She contract them to show her work and in return they get to keep some of the profits. But a good artist/gallery relationship will see each other as equals and they can bring benefits to each other.

In the end, if galleries don't change, then a lot more artists will be finding other ways to sell their work, and keeping more of the money. Galleries must change their ways or die.

Lori and Clint,
Excellent discussion with wonderful points! I’d love to forward this to my gallery... who refuses to give me the names of my collectors. The collectors I know about are “incidental” - met during openings of my shows.

But the secrecy about the collector list (Gallery Rule) makes me feel as if I am treated as suspect by the gallery that I feel I have already proven my loyalty to...time and time again! Maybe I simply need to discuss this again with them…

Here's the thing: I've referred several people to my gallery where my paintings were ultimately purchased. One was from my website, and another from a FB friend from Norway- neither knew that the painting was not in my possession. Twice I have even referred collectors requesting COMMISSIONED works of mine. Why? First, I'm 3 hours from my gallery that is located in a larger city, and it just works better if I let the gallery deal with the specifics of the size and type commission, the down payment, and specifically what the collector wants - especially if the collector is nearer to the gallery than to me. It "closes the deal” quicker - and with less hassle. And honestly- I also feel some obligation to the gallery since these collectors would have never heard of me and asked for commissions had they not seen my other paintings in the gallery.

I am relatively new to the art scene - this is my second career, and I have been doing double time: marketed my business by running ads statewide and in the area of my gallery, generating interest through speaking opportunities, teaching, art clubs , donations to charity fund raising and assisting civic leaders in planning for local and regional art events. I truly am running my business as if I were CEO. But, as Lori knows: I'm also the LABORER! The time comes when my perceived marketing demand exceeds art production and I have actually had collectors in the gallery seeking my larger paintings that are not made yet!... Sometimes I think that if I just went into the studio and painted the paintings, that the sales would come. That’s what my gallery owner tells me!!

My gallery says don’t worry about a newsletter, that "marketing" is what I “pay” them for (50 percent commission)! But it's reasonable to think they would just as soon sell another piece of art as mine- that I am truly the only one looking out for my own best interest for sales. Also - as I said- I am “new” to the scene, so I am just thankful for art sales… and not having the list of collectors is not a biggie for now- especially since my other gallery closed! So, as you can see, I’m still torn about making demands. Maybe with increased production -and acceptance at another good stable gallery- I will feel better about making demands.

Finally, I agree with the salon or grand exhibition theme that galleries are having - those in their galleries, or in hotels - with invited collectors flocking in. It's almost a no brainer! I even discussed with my husband -the other night over dinner - the idea of collaborating with an influential art collector acquaintance and having one. Other than the show that Horton -Hayes has in Charleston, you just don't see those in the south! And the funny thing about that auction ( I visited them on Hilton Head last month as they were putting the catalog together for the art auction in Charleston) they have the SAME artists as the western shows! I wanted to shout: GET SOUTHERN ARTISTS!

Seth Godin posted on his blog today a succinct explanation of why I think art galleries can still have relevance in today's world. He's not specifically talking about galleries or using the same words I did above (curation) but I think it's a related idea:

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2010/08/the-blizzard-of-noise-and-the-good-news.html

One more thought - part of the great thing about buying art - my favorite thing perhaps - is not only getting cool art but connecting with the artist. Becoming part of their "story". I'm buying the artist as well as the art.

WHY DO GALLERIES TRY TO KILL THE BIGGEST SELLING POINT?

WHY do they try to STOP me from being part of the story, why do they stop themselves from being part of the story? Why aren't galleries having retreats with the gallery's top collectors and artists?

Dang, I'm getting frustrated now.....

Clint, You share the best when you're frustrated!

This is a truly important conversation. The point about artists being really picky about whom they show with is key.

PS my laptop is officially dead as of last evening. I won't be online very often. Guess I'll just have to create amazing artwork. BTW: I'm assisting on putting on a major show for the Putney Painters with a major gallery (2012). I'm enjoying working with them, but they don't share the buyer's names. I suspect they'll have to share with Richard and Nancy.. and probably the rest of us because we, the artists, will make the rules. We artists are meeting to design a contract this month.
Whoo Hoo!

In the past, I wrote my own contracts and had the gallery owner sign them. If they didn't like what I wrote, I didn't work with them. That's why our work has to be really good. They have to want to sell it so bad that they will say yes to their sharing names. When our work is outstanding, it becomes a privilege for them to sell it.

Dot, you're doing all the right things, and your work is paving the way.

The great thing about showing locally is that when you can walk into the gallery any time (because you live near enough), they're more honest.

the great thing about being nationally known and in a gallery that is nationally known - is that local fame automatically comes along with national fame. If the work is good enough, an artist doesn't have to show locally first. My friend, Daniel Keys is a good example of that. Two years ago, no one knew of his work, and now galleries are vying for his paintings, but he has to turn most of them down.

If I stop responding to this thread next week, it's because I'll have limited internet access from VT. Hey, I first started painting with the Putney Group in 2001, and they weren't all that good back then. Hard work and a great education has given them the edge. Richard does not do anything to promote our careers - we have to do all of that on our own. He just teaches us everything he knows.

Dot, Richard is like a surrogate father to me. He's just such a generous person - doesn't hold any info back, but it's all in his book too. Alla Prima.

Yes, placing in the right competitions helps get your work in front of gallery dealers and collectors' eyes. In a way, it means that you can focus on sales and competitions. If you place in competitions, it just gives your collectors that much more confidence - it validates your work.

I think your work is lovely - not surprised that you're selling well.

Yes, galleries should share the names of the buyers. I've had some many galleries go out of business over the years and *Poof* with the gallery gone, the collector is gone.
I always give my gallery a commission IF I know that the first contact was through the gallery.But if the gallery doesn't give me that info, how am I to know?
I once had a gallery that stated in their contract that the artist must give the gallery a commission if I sold a painting to one of their collectors. I asked "So you will be giving me their names?" Of course not. I asked how I was suppose to know who their collectors were. They had no answer.

I agree with Lori 100 percent

Yes, I do agree with you K. Does Joe Smith have to buy your work at the gallery or just see it there? Your work is everywhere now - in magazines, competitions special shows/events. Most of the collectors I know who attend these major shows and auctions are all the same folks. They fly everywhere just to get the excitement of buying during these people in NYC, Tucson, Colorado etc.

Here's something I've been thinking about... selling my highly finished works through galleries only, but offering my quick studies only from my website. I realize that your work, K, probably has no quick studies, so this probably wouldn't work for you, but I re-construct larger landscapes from small studies/sketches. There's no way the studies would have the same price range as the works in the galleries or special event shows.

What do you think K.? How would you feel about that if you were a gallery owner or a collector of my work? I'm interested in your opinion - advice.

Lori, I think you and Kyle made a valid point.
I asked one of my galleries that shows my American Indian work if they wanted to show my Cowboy paintings. No, they did not. In a case like that I would have no qualms about selling my Cowboys to their customers and not sharing the commission.(That gallery doesn't share the buyer info so it's a mute point). You might want to be up front with the gallery and tell them that you don't wish to sell the studies in galleries but you will be selling them in your studio. And it might be nice if your gallery shares the collector list you return the favor by giving them a small commission if one of their collectors buys a study from you.
Also, If I paid for a booth space at an art fair I would not share a commission.
If I advertise a painting on my own in a magazine, my gallery will get a smaller commission since I had to pay for the ad.
Kyle, I have one gallery that shares buyer info with me. My other 9 galleries do not.
Oh, and Joe Smith has to actually BUY from the gallery to be one of their collectors. If the gallery lets the buyer get away and he comes to me to buy, then he's MINE! No commission for the gallery.But he pays the same price whether he buys from me or the gallery!!!!

K. thanks for taking the time to answer and give advice. I want to emphasize something you said about charging the collector the same price from your studio as they would pay in the gallery.

A lot of artists don't realize that they need to have one retail price for their work whether it's sold through the gallery, studio, or outdoor show.

I'm not currently working with any galleries, but am building a body of work so that will change. I used to work with several galleries, but my writing prevented me from getting enough work done to supply any. One of the galleries did give me the names of my collectors. The owner has since retired and the gallery no longer exists. Come to think of it, most of the galleries I worked with ten years ago no longer exist... hmmm....